1. Steven and Cary Stayner: The Hero and The Villain

Two brothers, Steven and Cary Stayner, are both famous, but for veryyy different reasons. Buckle up for this rollercoaster of a story about a hero and a villain.
Lead Investigator: Erin

Content warnings:
Current in Crime- death of children, child abuse, right-wing conservative ideals
Steven and Cary Stayner- child abuse, sexual assault, rape, abduction, physical assault

Resources:
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/13/1027133867/children-dead-father-claims-qanon-conspiracy-led-him-to-kill
https://abcnews.go.com/US/steven-cary-stayner-tale-brothers-horror-heroism/story?id=60529944
https://heavy.com/news/steven-stayner-death/
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/yosemite-killer-cary-stayner-born

Images from the episode: https://www.instagram.com/p/CS7NrjfLbrC/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Transcript: https://iaintakillapodcast.buzzsprout.com/1834054/9062380-1-steven-and-cary-stayner

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Transcript

Carter: 0:17

Alright,

Erin: 0:18

we're here.

Elewa: 0:19

Finally, god fucking damn.

Erin: 0:22

took us awhile.

Carter: 0:26

Like, I want you to know how much we really want to do this because it's been, what, two weeks now already

Erin: 0:34

We've already recorded two episodes that we probably can't use.

Carter: 0:38

We'll probably post them on like a Patreon or something later, as far as content for, y'all see where the struggle really started. But we can't give that to y'all for the first two episodes

Erin: 0:47

We're learning with y'all

Carter: 0:50

With us. We're at the beginning of this, right. We're doing our best though. We're having some fun. Yeah. This is the fun part. So we're having as a, as a 30 seconds ago, we're having kids before they hit that record button. That, Yeah. Welcome to the third first episode of I ain't a killer podcast. You better accentuate that eight. I know. Right? Cause I was like, oh, I'll try that. I was like, ain't a killer, right? We are not killers. We are not killing. Not everybody's like, I am the killer. I'm like, no, We ain't Calissa. Talk about, kill it. I feel like some people get it off, but that is inspired by the Tupac song. It's called Harold help. Blah. What is it called? Hail Mary. So look it up. If you haven't heard it, we can't sing it cause copyrights, but you look at it as Carter said, what? My name is Carter. Oh, it is[inaudible] Last name. My name is LOI. My name is Erin. And where are your three hosts? Yep. I should say we did three homes. I was like, wait, but not talking about my friend that way.[inaudible] where the host and the investigators. Yes. Host and lead investigators. And I had a killer podcast. When we talk About true crime, we'll be talking about stuff that's going on

Speaker 4: 2:25

Currently and highly

Carter: 2:28

Unusual cases. We might talk about some of the famous ones every now and again, but for the most part, we'll be discussing things that kind of get overlooked. And you know, some of the stuff that you don't usually hear on true crime podcasts, and we'll be talking about it from our perspective, which is a little different than the popular, true crime podcasts out there, or some of them we're going to, um, join the short list of black true crime podcast, others. Um, yeah. There's[inaudible]

Speaker 4: 3:08

No, it's all over here though. Actually, while

Carter: 3:10

We were doing, um, the legwork for this podcast, I did find a couple other, uh, black podcasts that I want to start listening to my rotation. One specifically, um, on Tik TOK is called sisters who kill features specifically black women who have committed true crimes. Okay. Okay. So I'm going to add that to my list too. Yeah. Then we want to do what brought us to true crime, but what's piqued our interests. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I was gonna say who want to go first? Okay. Okay. Um, yeah. I always Used to watch, uh, like snapped and ID discovery and stuff with my auntie, you know, all that stuff is like in constant rotation when you're around older black women, which is like, I think that we need to have that conversation one day. How old are You? I love true crime. Like, what is that? Like in a different way, but it's like a different, yeah, it's like a different, they don't get into it, but they love having it in the background. Why they could gain all the laundry is that our audience[inaudible]. But I didn't actually start Getting into the details of certain cases, especially when it comes to like cults and like serial killers and stuff like that until I got access to, you know, like streaming platforms and stuff like that and like Twitter. Um, I think I found a, I think I found a thread on Twitter actually. And it was like 150 serial killers that you didn't know about or whatever. And I didn't even pay attention to the number. I just kept rolling through a thread and to laugh, managed. And then when I finished, I was like, yo, I got a problem. Like I literally said that to myself and I kept it to myself cause I didn't want nobody to know. I was like, oh, reading him like that. But it's fascinating. It's not necessarily like even glamorizing like how other folks might Perceive it. It's just like the human condition going that far to do some like that is ridiculous. And it's just something I, I could never see myself being capable of. So like why do people do these things? Right. So definitely It's interesting to like sit with like some of the things we know, like societaly that harm people like capitalism and the patriarchy and white supremacy and like how those things allow for these other extreme acts to happen. Right? Like not only in our day to day, also in these outrageous evidences that are rare, but really not that rare. No, because There's a wealth of cases out there for us to break down for you all. Yeah. All over The world too. It's not even just like something that happens in the U S Yeah. I do think it's interesting though. Cause like, you know how we use Murderpedia is one of our resources or at least I do anyway. And they have it broken down by country and like some countries have much higher numbers than others. The us being one of, I think Australia has pretty high numbers at least, you know, people listed on that website. And then there's some countries that have like two or none and I'm like, what are y'all doing? Right.[inaudible] also wonder if they got something to do with like the highest white people population too. Like, cause you said Australia, the us, I was like, okay that's we took for to, there's gotta be something. I mean, white supremacy is definitely a root for a lot of violence. So for sure it doesn't surprise Me at all. I'm fascinated to, Um, my history with true crime started with similarly, like my mother will always have on America's most wanted, I'll be at watching it while we're at the laundromat or whatever, giving myself nightmares, not giving myself nightmares because nobody told her that at all. But um, you know, as a kid at first it was like, why do you watch this? But it was always on. And then I started to become intrigued and the got interested and I was also interested in like horror novels and stuff like that and like spooky, spooky things. And then I ended up in therapy at 13 because I was so anxious about being kidnapped. So my therapist told me to stop watching the news. But you know, once I got a hold on that, uh, came back around the true crime and started watching the usual like snacks and unsolved mysteries and stuff like that. Even that I don't particularly care for unsolved things because things are still there and still real, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'd say mine is pretty similar as well. Like law and order SVU. I feel like a lot of people used to binge watch that. Um, or still do. It's probably still on TV at the moment. Um,

Speaker 4: 7:31

There's a marathon on a Brighton, jumped the shark though. Like that, like they getting to the point where like

Carter: 7:37

is like hitting notes and like, well it's done left. I'm a Stabler. Even Though I feel like he has it. I think he has his own spin-off Now. And they do some crossovers. Hmm. I think the partner he has. Yeah. I haven't watch that show. Well, anyway, I stopped watching that a while Ago, but um, I also got into true crime podcasts, true crime, documentaries docu-series and all of that. Um, unlike Carter, I don't like scary things, which is a weird, you know, like, why am I hosting a true crime podcast? But I don't know. I guess my brain can like distinguish between like watching true crime and watching a scary movie. I don't know what it is, but either way I'm obsessed with it and that's all I listened to in the car and I'm excited to be a part of this. Yeah. It's gonna be great. I think so. Yeah. We're working out the kinks and getting there, Listening to this episode right now we have worked out at least enough kinks to actually make something and that's okay. God Is so Excited about this podcast, but You only be excited for so long. Okay. Look. I'll tell it like it's all done. Right? The microphones Aren't working, the computers aren't working the hookups. Aren't what like right. We're ready to talk. I'll talk to y'all it just wasn't working for us, but I think we got it. I think we could, we would go. All right.[inaudible] moving on. Next is currently. All right guys. So this week in current and crime, I am going to read an article from the tip that Aaron sent me. There's nothing

Speaker 4: 9:37

Funny about this story, except for the fact that like people really, really believe

Carter: 9:46

Like in their whole heart, like there's nothing wrong with believing in conspiracy theory. Like I have my speculations about things like two blocks still being alive. That doesn't really harm anybody. But when it gets to this point, it's a problem. 100%. So I'm reading an article from NPR. Um, it was written by Joe Hernandez and the title is a California father claims Q Anon conspiracy led him to kill his two children at BSS. Goodness gracious. Right? This the one with the Dog. It's it's bizarre. So I'm going to go ahead and read it word for word. A California father took his two young children to Mexico and killed them with a spear fishing gun. After he claimed he had been enlightened by Q and not and Illuminati conspiracy theories, federal authorities say, Whoa, hold on. Right. A spear or what? Wait, what a fish As spear phishing. Then isn't that? I forgot to do content warnings. So yes. Death of children and child abuse Q and on right wing conservative ideals. Yeah. And we'll put all the content warnings in the description as well. Yeah. Moving forward, but okay. You said if a spear fishing gun. Yeah. So I didn't Google it, but I assumed it was one of those like, uh, automatic things that you can put like a big arrow on or big spear to like shoot fish basically, which seems odd in General, much like It has its place in the world of fishing. But yeah. That's like A lot. I had one ODI cause you killed her children, but then like you took a whaling gun. Like they, I think they use those for healing. Yeah. For huge fish. And you took that to some children. Yeah. So according to a criminal complaint filed in federal court in California, Matthew Taylor Coleman reportedly told investigators. He had been quote receiving visions and signs or billing that his wife possessed circuit DNA and had passed it onto his children and quote, and that by killing them, he was close saving the world from monsters. I'm literally covering my eyes right now. Yeah. It's A, it's quite quite a wild, um, conspiracy Q Anon, a conspiracy poppy conspiracy popular among some of the far right that claims democratic politicians operate a cabal that kidnaps and torches children using their blood and satanic rituals. It wasn't the first time authorities responded to a crime based on a conspiracy theory that originated on the internet. Whoa. Right? Yes. Like, is this the best article for the podcast? Cause we're all like shocked and can't even talk[inaudible] It was 16. Edit Edgar, Madison Welch injured, a Washington DC pizzeria and fired a rifle into a door claiming he was investigating the debunked pizza gate. Rumor. I remember this, that conspiracy theory claimed that the comment ping pong restaurant was a hub of say as a tenant child sex abuse rates associated with top democratic politicians Walters later sentenced to four years in prison. Um, Coleman 40 was first reported missing by his wife, identified in the complaint as AC on Saturday. She wasn't able to reach him by phone. After he left in the families fan with their two children, a two year old boy and a 10 month old girl. I know they were so young. Um, the next day at the suggestion of the police AC used the find my iPhone app to track Coleman's last known location to an open air shopping center in Rosarito and the Mexican state of Baja, California. When Coleman arrived Monday at the U S border crossing incen, I don't know how to pronounce it seat. Yes. Sit syndrome possibly. Uh, without a shoulder and law enforcement officers took him into custody earlier that morning, Mexican authorities had discovered the bodies of two children with puncture wounds in their chest. Colin apparently told investigators. He knew that killing his children was wrong, but said it was the only course of action that would save the world. Oh my gosh, Mexican officials also recovered the weapon bloody clothes and a baby's blanket authority said Coleman has been charged with the foreign murder of us nationals. Whoa. Right. It's just so interesting to me how impressionable the human mind is. Like it's capable of these amazing things, right? Like people can do and invent and create does astounding things. And then also six months on the dark web or queue and on or whatever chat room can have you kill your children. Cause you think they're losers. Which also, I think doesn't that belief have roots in anti-Semitism And it has anti-Semite uh, anti-Semitic groups. Um, because like people being, um, like the lizard, people that own everything, like it's a whole like conspiracy. And even if you look at like our cartoons, when we were younger, it's mostly birds that the whole lizard thing is a real thing. But like people being secret lizards or people being birds because of the, they're the shapes of a lot of, you know, the stereotypical Jewish nose, you'll see that in like, uh, even if you look at like this marks, right? Like the, I think the villain's called Roth Gar or like something like that or like Rothberg or something and he's not Jewish then, you know, stuff like that. Not saying that that's like the same thing as lizards, but it has some of those like same roots. And so it seeps into because of white supremacy, it seeps into our like folklore and then of course into our conspiracy theories too. And so it's really weird, but no, I was just going to, like, I was just going to say like how you said, like how impressionable the mind is, but like even more so for people with power who don't believe that people who are further from power suffer, like, so how, like most of the people who I hear about being like attached to conspiracy theories are like these like white people are like hidden men or something like that. And they go down these rabbit holes and they're like, oh, everybody's secret lizards. And they're sacrificing children in the secret rituals instead of just believing that there's a whole system based off of capitalism, it takes advantage of who is the best target. Boom. Like, it's so hard for them to believe that like they can believe this ridiculous thing, but they can't believe something that's right. Yeah. In front of them, they can't believe Racism. Oh. Like all lives matter. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But like, uh, we have a secret president that's about to be like reinstated on in March and April inmate. You know what I mean? I really believe that. And it's just like, it's wild To me that they can believe that. But like not what's really going on. Right. That's true. Structural Racism that those are people. Yes. Of course enough to do this painless act. Yeah. This terrible, terrible thing. I wonder like, what was the lead up to this? Cause I'm like, was this, was the dad like doing this research in private, having all these thoughts and then all of a sudden one day exploded and then did this, or was this something like leading? You know what I mean? Cause I feel like people who believe these wild conspiracy theories, it takes over their life in their conversations and everything. People can't even stand to be around them anymore. Right. So I'm like, what was that? What was it like for the mother? And like how, what was the lead up to this? Like the killing the murders. And I know it's just, how do you get to a point where your own children are the enemy? But I mean, I remember we in the story where, you know, people are other stories where people are in fights with our adult children or teenage days, children, children who can have a dissenting opinion. And that makes sense. But like these two innocent babies, like your kids specifically has surfeit DNA. And what led you to believe that the world was going to be in peril if you didn't do this 10 month old. Right. The baby baby. And Then, um, it's because they thought that the mother had serpent DNA too and had passed it onto the kids. So I'm curious as to, I mean, not that I would want anybody else to be killed, but I'm curious as to why that wasn't yeah. Someone that he targeted, but also why the mother, like why not him? Who she probably Didn't agree with his conspiracies and that was enough proof for him or something to believe that she had to be the quote unquote enemy. Yeah. And Of course he would never have serpent Deanna. Right. Cause he's on the right side. Right, right. It's so wild for me to think that at this day and age, people are still acting like this, thinking like this believing, things like that, like it's just so wild. But I guess if on the internet you can find anything. So you can find hundreds of articles that say people have certain serpent blood. Yeah. That's like the downside of the internet and you can find anything. Yeah. Okay, great. But you can literally find anything and going down these rabbit holes is so easy for people because a lot of the people who fall victim and stuff like that, don't have access to information, but don't have access to science and somebody debunking things for them and sort of isolated themselves. So they don't have other people that are like, no, that's not really what it is. Right. In the methods of these people that run these conspiracy theory platforms or whatever the case may be, whatever you wanna call it, like use such insidious like methods. It's like the same kind of like methodology of like a cult. Right. I guess they could. Yeah. I feel like it, yeah. I don't know what we should look up. Like what constitutes a Colt, but I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if it escalates to the point of you're killing your children, because it was something someone else said that feels pretty cold, Very cold. All right. Well that is what's current in crime for this week. If there are any updates in this story, we'll be sure to share them with you in the feature. Yeah. Sending our love to the, uh, the mother of those kids and those kids, you know. All right, welcome back everybody. We're back, we're back me and his thing. So this week our lead investigator will be Erin. Yay. That's me. I let her introduce her story for us along with its content warnings for you all to make an informed decision about whether or not you can handle this episode. So thank you for that introduction. Correct. Hey, everyone is Erin. Um, today we're going to be talking about the tale of two brothers, Stephen and Cary Stayner. Um, it also goes by another name, but I'll um, say that at the end. So content warnings, we have sexual assault, rape abduction, and physical assault. So if any of those make you feel uncomfortable and make you not want to listen to this episode, we understand just catch us next time and um, we'll see you there. So I will go ahead and get started. Um, the stainer family is made up of two brothers three in their parents. Kay. And Delbert Stayner. They lived in a secluded farming house. Um, I'm sorry. A secluded farming town called Merseyside, California, which was surrounded by almond groves and peach or orchards. I was like, dang. That's beautiful. Right. That sounds nice. It Is very close to[inaudible] national park. Um, I've never said it out loud. Like you learn a word by reading it. How do you somebody's Yosemite? Is that really what it is? I'm embarrassed. I did the same thing yesterday, so, but I'm pretty sure I can guess what it is. Wow. Okay. Well thank you for telling me in the beginning. No one makes fun of me. Okay. I got it. Um, carries the older of the two brothers and he looked out for Steve and his younger brother. They hung out a lot. They played a lot and friends of the brothers, remember Carrie as a nice and kind quiet person. And they would take the younger ones. No carries the older ones. Okay. Stephen's the younger one. So they would typically spend their days riding bikes and hanging out with friends or skateboarding, just, you know, a normal kid stuff. So when the boys were still in elementary school, a man named Kenneth Parnell entered the picture, Parnell worked at Yosemite. It sounds wrong. Um, so Cornell worked at Yosemite lodge, which was about two hours away from the standard family home. Um, prince Albert friended, a coworker named Irvin Murphy and Irvin would assist him in a vial act that would shake this family forever. So on December 4th, 1972 on a cold sleep tea, they said sleeting the article. But there was sleet wintery day, Steven Stayner, who was seven years old at the time was walking home from school and personnel in Murphy. His coworker were driving into town. They learned Stephen into their vehicle and abducted him. And apparently Kenneth Parnell had stopped the car and pretended to make a call at a payphone. And he came back and told Steven that he had spoke with his parents and that they didn't want him anymore. Which made me so sad. I was like, And you know, he believed it too.[inaudible] yeah. So when Steven didn't come home from school, his parents, his parents freaked out and they sounded the alarm in the murder, said police department mounted a large effort to search for Steven, but they weren't able to find anything. So a childhood friend of Carrie who's Steven's older brother, um, said in an interview in 1999, that Carrie was really upset. And, um, the friend even heard stories about him going out and wishing on a star that his brother would come home. I know it was horrible. Um, Carrie also felt some responsibility for his brother's kidnapping. And I'll get into that in a, but just a little background on, um, Carrie and the family's history. So Carrie who's the oldest of the five children. Um, they all had a traumatic childhood, um, that involves sexual abuse. And according to a psychiatrist, the St our family tree was, um, w had mental illness and sexual abuse going back for five generations. Yeah, definitely. It's horrible. Um, standard's father was ordered into therapy for molesting his own daughters. And one of standard sisters said that Carrie started peeing on her and inappropriate inappropriately touching her when she was 10. So not only was the father sexually abusing the sisters and the brothers, Carrie, the oldest brother was also, um, inappropriately, sexually touching, um, his sisters. Okay. So Carrie was also found spying on his sisters, in their neighbor, hiding under their beds and secretly videotaping them. And he eventually, So there's the seventies. They have like a full blown video camera, the whole Ordeal. Yeah. Wow. Um, Carrie eventually told a psychiatrist that he worried that obsessive thoughts he had about holding the neighbor girl against her will somehow caused Steven to be kidnapped. So that's why he was worried that he had a part in it because he had these fantasies about their neighbor. So going back to Kenneth Parnell, who had just, who had abducted Steven, um, they traveled around California for years and he, even years he moved for Steven to call him dad. No. Right, absolutely the not. Um, he was like a father figure to him during the day. And I put that in quotes, father figure, and he, um, sexually assaulted and raped him by night. Disgusting. Um, Stephen was told that he had a new name, Dennis Parnell, and he was even enrolled in school where he actually flourished, um, Lori Duke who dated Stephen who, and she knew him as Dennis during school. She said that he had a great personality. He was spunky. You could see that you wanted to play and be with kids and be normal. So while Steven and he went by Dennis, but we'll say Steven to not make it confusing. But while he was a freshmen at Mendoze Chino, CNO, I'm sorry. I don't know what it is. But at that high school, his brother Cary was an upperclassmen at Marcet high school, about 300 miles north. So Carrie was always known as the kid whose brother was kidnapped, but apparently he was a really good cartoonist and he was voted most creative at school. He was always remembered as wearing a hat. And, um, it was later found out. It was because he was compulsively pulling his hair out. Um, he started to exhibit some behaviors that people around him made him uncomfortable outside of the home. Cause obviously he was already exhibiting behaviors as a child, but he later admitted that he had exposed himself to a sister's friend. Oh, gross. In a reporter who covered the story said that it seemed as though he had a compulsion with trying to get close to women or be sexual with them, but he was unable to develop any sort of interpersonal relationships with any women. So the contrast between the two brothers at the T at the time was really different. Like on one hand, Steven who had been abducted was living with this person who was raping him sexually assaulting him was actually like thriving in his outside life at school. He had a girlfriend, he was happy. He was doing like normal kid things. And then Carrie, who was left at home, who also went through sexual trauma, but he was the one who was becoming like this loner. He didn't have any interest in other people. Other people didn't have interest in him. He was kind of just going like in the opposite direction as his brother. So like an old school. And so, yeah. Yeah. So by the time Steven turned 14, who was the child that had been abducted. He had been abused and manipulated by Kenneth Parnell for seven years. And at some Point, right, nothing to the other guy, the coworker, they not stay with their little, no. He just Helped a guy 10 and then went about his own thing. So at some point both part now, and Stephen realized that Steven was growing up and he no longer could be controlled by Parnell. So Parnell wanted another kid that he could sexually assault. Wow. That's horrible. But I've like just by watching true crime a lot. It's pretty typical. Yeah. Like once they get old enough, that's like they age out condo and they want to like fill in with a younger person. Oh, wow. Um, so in February of 1980, which was eight years after Kenneth Parnell abducted, Steven Stayner Parnell decided to capture a new younger boy imp Parnell, paid a local kid to ride with him to the small town of Ukiah, California. I don't know if that's right, but We don't either.[inaudible] um, He then put this, um, per this kid who is in high school on the street and told him to find a boy. And he found five-year-old Timothy White, who was walking home from school. So Parnell, ducted, Timothy White. And for two weeks, Steven watched Timothy suffer the separation from his family and all of the other things. And he decided to take matters into his own hands. Um, his girlfriend at the time later told reporters that he had told her that he wasn't going to let that child go through what he had been through. And if he didn't take care of it now than it would only get worse. Excuse me. Imagine going through all of that and still being that empathetic, right. You don't Have to have like a huge heart. He put him probably would have been like, oh, amazing person had that not happened. I'm a hundred percent, especially having been in that situation for seven years away from your family and being manipulated and told your name was something different, all that stuff. Yeah. So on March 1st, 1980, Steven waited until Parnell was at work and he fled with Timothy and he would carry wa when he was too tired to walk. And eventually they were able to hitchhike to Ukiah California, unfortunately, because Timothy was a baby. He couldn't remember where he lived. So Steven took him to the police station and not only did Stephen explain to the police what happened to himself, he also explained what happened to Timothy. And he told them that it really wasn't Steven and that exact word he said were, I know my first name is Steven. And that would later become the title of a book and a television movie about his story. Wow. So he was a hero and he returned to mercy triumphant. And within days he was on a television circuit because he had been missing for however long. And he also saved this child and himself. So on good morning, America in March of 1980, he said that his parents didn't really change that much, but his brothers and sisters had changed a lot. It had been seven years or eight years. Um, and at a press conference, outside the stainer home, there's a picture and you can see everyone is smiling, but in the background, Cary, Stayner in his baseball cap, wasn't smiling at all. And I also have this picture so we can post it on our social most definitely, but I can already kind of, I can already kind of picture it well, especially with that, like seventies kind of look to it. Yeah. So that's so cool. Yeah, it's creepy. He's just in the background of everyone and he's just straight face. Oh, this kinda Reminds me of that. Um, this is not really related at all, but the news coverage of the Elisa Lam case when like her parents and her sister were there, I just thought that they're the, like, I mean, obviously you can't predict how anybody's going to behave under extreme stress and trauma and trying circumstances, but like their energy always seemed really off to me in that clip. So I imagined that the picture has that same kind of vibe to it. Right. So Barry had a really strange relationship with Steven after he came home and Steven was receiving a lot of attention and he was way different than he was before he had been abducted. And, um, even though they were four years apart, they shared a room. They didn't really get along a lot. And, um, Steven was having a hard time understanding the rules that he was now expected to live by. So a few years later during, uh, another interview with good morning America in 1983, Stephen said that his first year back was kind of hectic in that first seven years. He was basically an only child. And now he had to compete with a brother and three sisters. I thought it was interesting that he said compete cause, um, to have to like compete for attention and things. And then, um, it seems that Carrie also had this similar like competition vibe when it came to his siblings because when Steven first came back was getting all this attention and stuff and Carrie wasn't, it's a little odd. Um, Steven was also struggling in high school where he was bullied for the abuse he had endured and Kids, kids are terrible. What can you imagine? W Um, I got, I can't even form words right now. I just cannot imagine being an adult in that situation. I'm like, okay, please explain it to me in a way that I can understand you're bullying him because he was abused. But if you think about it though, Like, okay, yeah, kids are terrible. And yeah, it doesn't make sense, but the way that, like the culture of like bullying and like, like roasting in a negative way, not roasting in a positive way with your friends, but like how people get roasted for letting things happen to them, especially with boy, like even, cause I mean, if this is nowhere along the line, the same vein of what happened, but do you remember when, um, like B2, K What's his name?[inaudible] Raspbian he came out and he said that he was being abused for years. Like ever since he was like a preteen or whatever. And then we're looking at what came out there was like, no, Chris, no, Chris, no, like basically making fun of him for being molested And everybody, you know, we was kids like everybody, like, oh, you know, but then you look at the lyrics and you're like, wait, this really made fun Of him for being abused. And so I could kind of see them doing this at like kids being saying, oh, Did you let that happen to you? Or whatever, you know, it's like Just super familiar a monitor that the patriarch, he literally harms everyone discussing it's most definitely. And, um, in addition to the bullying, his sexually, it was constant. Sexuality was constantly under attack, like you said, course. Um, so in addition to his struggles to adjusting at home in school, he's still had to face Parnell in court. Oh my God. No, that's terrible. That's terrible. So Kenneth Parnell was convicted on kidnapping and false imprisonment charges and he was sentenced to seven years in prison, but only served five. What, which was less time than he held Steven captive. He held him for seven years, but you get a discount lines of the fun, like, Yeah, please. I don't know these people. Why these? Oh, 100% wait. Hello. He got, he got seven certified. Well, this was this for that Steven and Timothy. Um, no that's no. So he was out. So I couldn't be, I couldn't be his parents because oh, yelled at them out. Cool. I'm Gonna pull up and I'm going to jail. Well, just give me the time. And he's about to get, because I just saving stuff a trial, go ahead and add it together. Cause I'm gonna go ahead and take care of this and y'all don't wanna do. And I'll be that, I guess I turned myself in because it was some. Yeah, It's up. And on that vein, I didn't do, uh, I didn't put it in my research because the research is already super long, but we know that their father was up. Their mom was also terrible. She didn't sexually abuse them, but she was, she didn't have a relationship with them. No type of emotional bond, anything. Um, these poor children, I mean, they didn't have a chance. Some of these parents, they do not have to have a chance. So there was a lot of outrage about the sentence, just like we have. And um, everyone knew that he was basically just going to go back out and do what he did before, when she did predictable. And after he got out, he found someone else to find him another boy. Luckily he was caught and sent to prison again. And he ended up dying in prison in 2008. Good. So while Steven was grappling with all of his own struggles, his brother Kerry was out of high school dealing with his own. So here we go with Carrie. Um, so after high school, Cary Stayner was lost. He didn't really know what he was doing. I mean, I feel like a lot of people go through that in high school. Carrie was a whole nother level. So he, he took refuge in Yosemite where he would drive up and he would get lost in nature. He, it was said that he liked to get naked and smoke pot and Michelle[inaudible] going to be out here. Um, he would find a piece from the demons that were in his head around the same time. Steven Stayner, his fame was short-lived. Um, he grew up and he got married and he had two kids. So we're kind of finishing out Steven's story. Okay. Um, so he got married, he had two kids. He, his wife, Jody stainers said that Steven was proud of who he was. And he was very grounded for someone who had gone through so much. Um, the miniseries about his story was released in May 23rd, 1989, but tragically four months later, Stephen was killed in, okay. Motorcycle Accident at the age of 24, no Children. Um, Ashley and Stephen Jr. Were just three and two of them. Oh, that is so sad. All of that, just to[inaudible] You're fine. So like I said, um, Carrie is lost. He's finding refuge at Yosemite park and after Steven's death, an uncle who Carrie was really close to, he actually lived with him, um, was shot and killed in his home. So is going through it. And, um, she's struggling. He's bouncing from one handyman job to another. He had some nervous breakdowns and apparently my success susceptible to fits of rage in one day in 1995, he freaked out and bloodied his fist by pounding it on a sheet of plywood. So a friend of Carrie said that Carrie told him that he felt like jumping in a truck, driving through the shop that he worked at, killing the boss, killing everybody in the office, then torching the place. Oh no. Um, the friend told him he needed to go to the doctor, but he didn't go to the doctor. He just continued to spend time at Yosemite park. Carrie would later tell the FBI that he had started imagining killing women and girls when he was just six or seven years old. So he had been having these horrible thoughts for almost his entire life that's yeah. And then it's like six and seven. Was he already being abused by them? And his mom didn't even do any and his mom didn't do anything. Well, his it's interesting because like he tells the psychiatrist, oh little while after this, um, there had been abuse in their family for however many years, five years, I think. And the abuse actually came from the mother's point of view from the mother's side of the family. Her father had sexually abused her as a child. And she always said that she wasn't going to allow that to happen to her children. But here comes her husband and he's sexually abusing her children. And I guess she kind of just fell back into this vulnerable state where she didn't feel like she could do anything about it. So it was kind of like an unspoken thing. That's awful. That is awful. So interesting to me how, where, how some people are attracted to like literally the same circumstances that they endured as a child. Like not purposefully purposefully, but no, they say like with the attachment styles and things like that, that you're attracted to people who have the same kind of makeup as like your, your parents, which is weird to think about, but it also makes a lot of sense. And it's tragic and circumstances like these are something that extreme is involved. Like definitely those poor kids. So in 1997, um, Carrie got a job as a handyman at Cedar lodge, which was seven miles from the gate of Yosemite park. And his job gave him access to the park. So Stayner had been at Cedar lodge for about two years when Carol's son who is 42, her teenage daughter, Julie who's 15 in her friend, Sylvania Peloso, who was 16, came to stay one night in February of 1999 at the lodge. So that night Kerri talked his way into their room, under the guise of fixing a leak. Um, he had been laid off for the winter season, but the guests didn't know that. Um, so that night Kerri talked his way into their room under the guise of fixing a leak. Um, he had actually been laid off for the winter season, but the guests didn't know that and they let him in. He then pulled out a pistol claiming he attended intended to Rob them. He bound in duct tape, the trio. Then you heard it Juli and Silvina into a bathroom while he choked Carol to death. Oh my God, he then strangled Sylvania. And he spent the next few hours sexually assaulting Julie, Jeff Renick, who was the, who was the FBI agent handling the case at the time said that the search for these women was the largest ever mounted in Yosemite. At the time it took several weeks for the bodies of the three women to be discovered in the bodies of Carolyn Sylvania were found in their rental car a month later, about 50 miles away in, they were alerted by an Anon Jesus. I can't even say by an anonymous letter that Carrie said he wrote, um, which they didn't say that he did Rick. Right? They said that Carrie said that he wrote this letter. So take without which you will, As I understand, it would be the motive to claim to have done something like that. If you didn't do it, but he Probably just wants to claim like power over the situation. Like you only caught me because I want it to be caught kind of Situation, which is really up. Yeah. Um, they found Julie's decomposed body mirror, Don Pedro was reservoir, which, um, overlook, I'm sorry in her throat was slashed. Thanks. Um, the authorities interviewed him for this, but they said they saw no red flags. What they believe that he was a clean cut handyman and had no history of violence. So he wasn't able, Did they not even scratch the surface like with this investigation? No. Instead They, um, focused on other employees at the lodge and on suspicious persons in the town of Modesto where Carol son's wallet had been found several days after her disappearance. What the? So they were like,

Speaker 4: 42:52

Oh no, you're not. Yeah. So they

Carter: 42:54

Didn't even question like where he was at the time and why he was there. Even though he had been laid off for the winter season, But also even just like a couple interviews of someone who knew him previously, what you would find out a lot. I've had these fantasies of wanting to kill womens as I was a kid I've been abused my whole life, my brother and my uncle just died. I'm having a really hard time. Like, yeah. Then also just even Googling his Brother, like he just a brief family history. He would have been the top search. Hey, his brother Was security in the home. Like, what year was it? Um, then you said like 99 or something. What year was what? I'm sorry, this, this incident 1989 or something. And then like If they had access to Google and up this badly, then wow. 1999. Yeah. They, they, they did right. The FBI, they can look at newspapers and his brother was all over the newspapers, especially in that area, that Existed[inaudible] that was there. That was a resource that they failed to utilize To find the full cast of Harry Potter and read about their lives. But you can definitely find this. Yeah. So five months went by, without another killing in the community. And everybody kind of calmed down the FBI announced that they believe they had the murders in custody, which they didn't. So on July 21st, 1999, Stayner saw Joey Armstrong who was a 26 year old naturalist at Yosemite. And she taught children about nature and the park, um, something changed in him and he wanted to kill her again. I think the reason why the article I got that from was because he had not done anything for five months. And once he saw her, he was like, oh, I have to do this again. She kind of triggered that. So her friends reported her missing and the police found signs of a struggle at her cabin. So about a half a mile away from her cabin, they found her body and the head, which had been removed was found a few feet away in the water. What the actual the FBI quickly related the two cases to one another. Stayner left a lot of evidence in and around her cottage. But the police initially started looking out for him because his vehicle had been seen near her place. And they thought he could be a witness to the crime. I'm so sick. Well, I'm sorry to be a whiteness. That's your First go-to like, oh, a witness, A witness hostile. Correct. And it's also someone who they had interviewed for the other murders. That should Be the first common denominator. Now just associate in your face with these circumstances. Maybe I should ask you a few more questions, not, Hey buddy, did you happen to see anything That they just murder second time, if you want to dig it and you get investigated during two separate shootouts, you did it.[inaudible] like, let's go keep you in traffic court. Figure it out then. So the FBI agents eventually caught up to carry at a nudist colony where he had fled to after murdering Joey Armstrong, he was running to questioning and eventually confessed to murdering her, which I think goes along with what you said, LOR, a lot of people that confess to their murders want to have like the B like the notoriety of it, or want to have control over the situation as far as like, yes, I did it. I'm telling you rather than you figuring it out, which I'll figure it out. They definitely not. So he Confessed. Thank God. Cause they would have never got there. And the FBI agent said that he described the brutal, brutal killing as if he was reading a soup label. My God. So soon after he confessed to murdering, soon after he confessed to this murder, he confessed to murdering Carol sun, Juli Sund and Sylvania Peloso in Carrie told an investigator. I want you to get ahold of some producers in LA. I want a movie of the week made about my story and he wanted the same treatment

Speaker 5: 47:18

As his brother. Oh wow. Wow. Wow. So Cary

Carter: 47:23

Stayner was convicted in all four murders and sentenced to death in 2002. He's now 59 old and he remains on death row in San Quentin St. Prison, Sean Flynn, who is a reporter that, um, investigated his case, said that as far as I know, he's never talked to anybody about the effect that Stephen might have had on his crimes. I'm not sure there is any direct cause and effect. Stephen could have grown up, normally have normal, happy and healthy. And Carrie still would have been a serial killer. He just wouldn't have been able to say, I want to show just like my brother was like, go be an actor. This case was so wild to me just, I mean, not only the juxtaposition of this two stories, but of how, like, I don't know if I believe what this reporter saying that there isn't a direct cause and effect maybe not a direct cause and effect that. But there is something that happened to Carrie when Stephen came back and got all that attention, got the TV show, all of this, where he wanted that in his mind already being tainted. And he's already struggling with these thoughts. That is where he went with it. Like, oh, I need to do this in order to obtain that same notoriety that my brother got, which is sick. And also that he was able to, because you remember, they said he had like compulsory relationships with women. Or he like had like compulsory behavior when it came to women and stuff. And that Steven was able to go through the same thing that he went through, come out normal and have normal relationships with people, have a wife and kids and stuff like that. So him and that can this violence on women because could he not like not see himself connecting to women otherwise? Yeah, that's what I said. It was giving me old school and sell because like that is the same logic that they use to justify their hatred towards women or violence towards women if it gets to that point. But it's like, I'm sure there was a ton of jealousy on Carrie's behalf. Like not even just the notoriety, but I'm sure even like when Stephen was talking about his experiences on TV and you know, sharing that he was doing well in high school, despite all of this and like, I don't know, played sports and had a girlfriend and like, you know, just was doing well. I had a likable Person that people wanted to be around and interact with. And Kerry's Just been sitting there throughout these years. One feeling guilty, but also still just being the loner in the weirdo, you know, in a bad way. Cause you can be a weirdo in a great way, but in a bad way. Yeah. I'm sure he I'm sure he had all kinds of wild feelings that he couldn't unpack. He definitely took his friend's advice and went to the[inaudible]. You need to go talk to somebody. Yeah. Like yesterday they all need that. I wonder about the sisters and like how their lives turned out. I looked probably like four or five articles on this just to make sure that all the details were there. They didn't speak about the sisters. The most of that they did was talking about how the father and Carrie abused them. Um, but I didn't see any more information. I know there are a few podcasts that have covered this story, so maybe they have a little more detail. And um, if we can find that we'll link the podcasts in the notes, but I didn't see anything about the sisters. If I was in my own home, want to have nothing to do, I would change my name and move the on. But also curious about the first victims. You said her name was Carol sun, like sun or son. S U N D S U N D. Cause cause the way it sounded,[inaudible] not that it has anything to do with like why I wonder what like where that last name comes from, because it seems to me and this might be because I'm just completely misinformed about like, you know who these men chooses their victims. But it seems to me that like in sales, whenever they have like a fixation on women, it's always this very particular type. Um, whenever men express that they can't get access to women, it's always like this very much like white supremacist idea of what is beautiful. It's always like the blonde. So I was the white girl. So I was the skinny girls. It's always the Cisco girls, you know, stuff like that. I never hear about people complaining that they don't have access to women who are bigger or women who are trans or you know, things like that. And I just think that's so interesting. Cause it's like, if you're that desperate to have access to somebody, why would you X out millions of people? Right? My was Jack's out. Most people, cause most people don't even look at their face And then on attaining what they believe they deserve. And they believe that they deserve these incredibly quote-unquote beautiful women, these unattainable women, these women that exactly like the top tier woman or however they define that. And I think that what you're saying makes perfect sense to me because that is what they believe. Like they truly resent and will become violent because they don't have access to what they think they deserve, which is the quote unquote best, you know? So I, yeah, it makes sense to me it's Associated because it's like, y'all are of course white women or just like thin women in general or anybody who's closer to power is like the number two in society or whatever, as compared to like, oh no black. They'd just be like the number 30 or whatever. Right. But all of a sudden these women up to be commodified and in sending them up to be commodified, you're setting them up to be like the center of this violence. Like I said, like people who think that they deserve like the best and things like that. I just think that's such a nice, so it's so scary to me. Like this is, oh my goodness. It's wild. Yeah. Yeah. I can't imagine like, thinking like that. That's why that stuff like this is so fascinating to me. I can't like imagine thinking that I have, I deserve access to like right. If nobody ever said they wanted to me up, be like down. Okay. I can do this. Right, right. Cool. I'm like up into violently murdering someone, Right. Sex is cross. Yeah. No. So, Um, Carrie is known as the Yosemite park killer and he's almost always, well, he has his own stories, but the two brothers are almost always spoke about together. Yeah. Um, I think the juxtaposition of the stories is really interesting. Yeah. So that's probably probably why they do that. It's really sad that Steven died. I would be interested in hearing more about his perspective. I want to check out the book, but I would like to hear about how his perspective changed as he got older, like around his abuse and his relationship with his brother and all of that And how he was able to maintain their relationship, intimate relationship with somebody, a sexual relationship with him throughout all of it and had kids and had to maintain A relationship with four kids. Well, that's The story on Steven and Cary Stayner, that's a great story. Thanks for sticking with us. We'll put all of the articles that I use to do my research and anything else we can find in the show notes. Yeah. And um, yeah. Do we want it in the evidence? Yeah. Just make sure you, um, give us a follow on All of our platforms. Uh, Anna Kyla podcasts on Instagram, same for Facebook and I in a killer pod on splitter. Um, you can listen To us on apple podcast, Spotify. Those are the main ones, but we're everywhere. Anywhere you can listen to a podcast, you'll find us there. So subscribe, follow, give us a lesson, a downloadable View, share it with a friend. Please give us a reminder. How does my place now I'd like to know that I'm looking for specifically[inaudible] To get you started places and be able to distinguish them On your own. I can't change it. Squeak, squeak. Well, thank you all for joining Guess ya'll next week. See ya. Bye.